New Plugins Home (Round 2)

[donho]

FYI:
https://github.com/notepad-plus-plus/notepad-plus-plus/commit/9fecbae030f33a31b131a75cf41b243c6ea36751

[pnedev]

@klou ,

Thanks for elaborating.
My post was just a reminder that a lot of people involved in administration were against such feature.

What about the case when you have the same plugin installed in both places (in N++ install dir and in the user profile)?

[pnedev]

@SinghRajenM ,

… If one does not like to load plugin other than the installation dir. I flag can be used which will disallow that.

The flag you are talking about should be a installation time choice, correct?

[Meta Chuh]

thanks @donho

i’ve seen that @pnedev 's Add ‘Open Plugins Folder…’ command has not been merged yet, so it’s not present at the current build.

will his ‘Open Plugins Folder…’ be present at the next release ?
i suppose it would make things easier to migrate plugins (for regular users), if they upgrade to 7.6.3.

note: if you don’t like ‘Open Plugins Folder…’ to be at the plugins menu directly, it could be an idea, to move this button inside ‘plugins admin’.
which would also be a logical place to search for it and equally easy to find (presupposed that the user has plugins admin enabled).

[SinghRajenM]

@pnedev

@pnedev said:

@SinghRajenM ,

… If one does not like to load plugin other than the installation dir. I flag can be used which will disallow that.

The flag you are talking about should be a installation time choice, correct?

Yes. You are right.

[V S Rawat]

<NPP_INST_DIR>\plugins\config\

It is ok with me if NPP_INST_DIR remains windows default location for installing any software, i.e. “Program Files” or "Program Files (86)
As we already have npp installer and we can reinstall npp to that location at any time, we don’t have to take backup of that folder.

Plugins and Plugin-list will be aside of notepad++.exe so no more sharing problem for all users, nor the security issue.

Excellent, I have been begging for that for eons. Thanks a gig.

With this change, I will keep my plugins well separate from c:\windows as well as from c:\Users, I will keep them in E:\MyData\npp64\plugins
As I need to take backup of that.

Future installers should not touch or add or delete to this folder.

I think you should not even provide default 4-5 plugins bunduled in the npp installers.

If I need to install or remove any plugin, I will do it manually through within npp Plugin Manager or Plugin Admin.

The applied plugin folder structure <PLUGINS_HOME>

How do we define our <PLUGINS_HOME> folder?

Can we define it from within npp Settings/ configuration, or can we define it in .ini file?

Other issue is PythonScript plugin that was still using npp installation folder, and putting its huge files and one dll and help files there, even when programdata was being used. How would you handle that unless that plugin developers release update?

those are huge files and we don’t need to take backup of them as they are already present in pyscript installer, it will be better if they remain in npp installation folder, or maybe they may be installed as a separate program on windows using a separate program files folder so that that plugin becomes available to entire windows, whoever cares to use it anywhere else.

if any plugin’s huge installation/ help files are put in new <PLUGINS_HOME> folder, that will be proglematic for me.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

My suggestion was:

The way you are now giving a “<PLUGINS_HOME>” variable, you should also please consider giving a “<USERS_HOME>” variable that a user can set to move his entire c:\USERS<name>\APPDATA\Roaming\npp folder (or whatever the structure is) to elsewhere.

then, in my case, I will move that to E:\MyData\npp\profile folder.

Then, plugins’ c:\USERS location will automatically move to the above location.

Then I can use the same npp <USERS_HOME> across my w10 and w8.1 multiboot.

please have a look to firefox, thunderbird arrangements for moving entire user profile that way. My firefox profile is in E:\MyData\ff\ffprofile and My Thunderbird profile is in E:\MyData\tb\tbprofile and I have been using them for 10-20 years, across multiboot o.s.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

I personally find the entire concept of doLocalConf.xml confusing and unnecessary.

new users must be getting confused about that, most might not be knowing that even for years of use of npp, the way it had been for me for years.

it should be done through a single variable in .ini file.

Would you like to share what is the benefit of this file over an .ini setting?

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

Many users don’t know what plugin is, and they will never use a plugin for years of using npp, so there is no point in making every user take the important decision about placement of plugins in programfiles or users\roaming right at the time of installation.

And once the user has made any decision in absence of full knowledge of the issue, there is no easy and obvious method of changing that from within npp settings.

I think this entire question about plugin location should be removed from installer, and the user should be able to install npp like he/ she installs other windows software, without having to making a tough far fetching decision right in the middle of first install.

Then, user should be able to decide from within npp settings, where he wants to keep plugins, if he ever wants to use a plugin. Otherwise, may be the user will never need to make such a decision for his entire life.

If a user changes the location of plugin_home or users_home from within npp settings, he should be asked whether he wants the existing contents of old folder to be moved to new location, and if he says so, it should be done. That new location might already have users previous setup of previous npp, if so, user should be warned that there are already similar files that would be overwritten, and he should be able to choose whether to copy/ move or not.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

I am not comfortable with the suggestion of Meta Chuh and pnedev about “extra sub-folder per plugin” made in other thread.

every plugin should have one .dll then it can be kept without needing any folder hierarchy structure.

And most plugins do have a single .dll, except some, say, pythonscript.

But then the developers can define within the single plugin.dll where the other dlls or other help files or other installation files can be found, so why cramp plugin folder?

Even if a plugin has several dlls and one or more help or other files, plugin developers can name them with plugin’s initials, say, pyscript1.dll, pyscript2.dll, pyscript.hlp, meaning that ll files of a plugin should come together and should be identifiable readily by the user with plugin’s name. then users will not find any problem.

I think pyscript plugin has another file that has no relation to plugin name and we have to figure out where that came from and whether it is safe.

So, my suggestion is to remove that pluginnamefolder/pluginname.dll compulsion

billions of people in the world live in shared house and shared room, every human is not having his own single occupancy house or room, so why not get used to that common trend. :-) maybe if npp policy is followed, husband and wife will have to sleep in different rooms. :-)

Thanks.

[Meta Chuh]

hi @V-S-Rawat

I personally find the entire concept of doLocalConf.xml confusing and unnecessary.

i understand what you mean, but it is imperative that it exists in the way it does now.

a little explanation:
if you don’t have doLocalConf.xml present at startup, notepad++ would look for a config.xml file inside of %AppData%\Notepad++\ to read it’s settings.
if it does not exist, it will create one.
now if the dolocalconf setting is within the config.xml, it would cause a paradoxon, as notepad++ would look up at %AppData% that it should behave as a “portable” version which is supposed to get it’s config from %InstDir% instead of %AppData%.

the existence of a file called doLocalConf.xml triggers notepad++ to read and create everything within it’s own folder, and it also triggers where notepad++ will read it’s config file from (and create/write to).

[V S Rawat]

I might have a 64 bit w10, and might have 32 bit w8, and I may have npp 32/64 bit in those.

so, if <pluginin_home> is single in both o.s, npp, I wil face problems when using same npp installation in both o.s.

of course, if I manually define different <plugin_home> for both o.s., but then if you are also considering to define a new <USERS_HOME>, then <plugin_home> will become fixed relative to this variable, and that single location can’t have both 32 and 64 bit plugins together.

so, my suggestion is while defining default <plugin_home>, it will become required if that can be kept separate for 32-bit and 64-bit, and future 128-bit and 256-bit so on.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

@Meta-Chuh

But npp.ini (whatever the name is) has to remain in npp’s intallation folder in program files.

Why keep npp.ini file to a different location?

Even if we have kept a copy of our previous npp.ini file safe in our pc or in backup, we can copy that single file to npp’s intallation folder after installing it, then it can read all things from there.

Then how does that local.xml file help over .ini file. We have to create/ copy xml file also once?

[Meta Chuh]

@V-S-Rawat

Many users don’t know what plugin is, and they will never use a plugin for years of using npp, so there is no point in making every user take the important decision about placement of plugins in programfiles or users\roaming right at the time of installation.

that’s one of the reasons why a built in plugins admin exists now.
plugins admin will make sure that the users you mentioned, don’t have to care where to put their plugins, and it will put the (re)installed plugins to the correct locations, even if the location changes, as it is built from the same developers that decide the folder structures.

[Meta Chuh]

@V-S-Rawat said:

I am not comfortable with the suggestion of Meta Chuh and pnedev about “extra sub-folder per plugin” made in other thread.
every plugin should have one .dll then it can be kept without needing any folder hierarchy structure.

yes i know, and i understand your primary reasons, to keep the old plugins structure as it was, because all older plugins will just work out of the box, just the way they’ve always worked.

but i think you’ll like the new structure, once all transitions are over and everything has calmed down a bit.
and we will help you through your needs as always, like you are used to, to keep your system running.

[Meta Chuh]

@V-S-Rawat said:

I might have a 64 bit w10, and might have 32 bit w8, and I may have npp 32/64 bit in those.
so, if <pluginin_home> is single in both o.s, npp, I wil face problems when using same npp installation in both o.s.

yes, as i’ve seen at the latest builds, your wish has been granted ;-)
all plugins will (again) reside in their respective x86 or 64 bit program folders and will not get in conflict with each other.

But npp.ini (whatever the name is) has to remain in npp’s intallation folder in program files.
Why keep npp.ini file to a different location?

because non administrator users don’t have the permission to write to %ProgramFiles% and %ProgramFiles(x86)% and therefore would not be able to make any config changes without the help of an administrator … and administrators usually don’t like to be called for every little font change one of his users thinks he needs right now 😉

btw: wow, today you write more posts, questions or requests … and much faster than anyone can answer 😂😂😂

side note:
the config file is called config.xml file located at %AppData%\Notepad++\config.xml of an installed version, and located at npp.7.x.x.bin\config.xml of a portable version.
it’s just like an “ini” file, but with a different, (probably) more readable syntax, as it is more structured and segments are foldable for easier reading if you want to analyse a certain part of it.

[V S Rawat]

@Meta-Chuh said:

yes, as i’ve seen at the latest builds,

latest builds? how do you get them? beta testing or RC? Privileged one. :-)

download page still has Jan 1 release when I last saw that.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

@Meta-Chuh said:

@V-S-Rawat said:

But npp.ini (whatever the name is) has to remain in npp’s intallation folder in program files.
Why keep npp.ini file to a different location?

because non administrator users don’t have the permission to write to %ProgramFiles% and %ProgramFiles(x86)% and therefore would not be able to make any config changes without the help of an administrator … and administrators usually don’t like to be called for every little font change one of his users thinks he needs right now 😉

if so, then METHINK there should be

• one configAdmin.xml that only Admin can change and that can be put in npp install folder, users don’ t change that.

• another configUser.xml that the user can keep at wherever location and the user should be able to change it without disturbing Admin.

both files should have settings that Admin or user respectively need to change. fonts etc can be in configUser. xml.

Thanks.

[V S Rawat]

@Meta-Chuh said:

@V-S-Rawat said:

btw: wow, today you write more posts, questions or requests … and much faster than anyone can answer 😂😂😂

Thanks for the compliment. :-)
(pretending as if I didn’t understand that it was actually a complain. :-) :-) )

[V S Rawat]

@Meta-Chuh said:

side note:
the config file is called config.xml file located at %AppData%\Notepad++\config.xml of an installed version, and located at npp.7.x.x.bin\config.xml of a portable version.
it’s just like an “ini” file, but with a different, (probably) more readable syntax, as it is more structured and segments are foldable for easier reading if you want to analyse a certain part of it.

disagree.

xml files have hard fixed structures and use additional terms that are strange to non-programmer users.

ini files are normal text files that are easy, having
[Sectionname]
Variable1=value1
Variable2=value2

These are much easier to understand and edit by a common user who doesn’t know any programming.

by making elementary use of npp difficult to non-programmer users, we are limiting npp’s prevalence and popularity.

My this complain is million time amplified for defining shortcuts and creating macros due to the xml structure.

Thanks.